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               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

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       12           U.S. CORPS OF ENGINEERS PUBLIC MEETING

 

       13                    MINERAL WELLS, TEXAS

 

       14                     FEBRUARY 24, 2003

 

       15        *******************************************

 

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                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  2

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1                   P R O C E E D I N G S

 

        2                     February 24, 2003

 

        3                MR. CONDIKE:  Thanks for coming out

 

        4  tonight on such a inhospitable evening.  I'm Brian

 

        5  Condike.  I'm with the Army Corps of Engineers in Fort

 

        6  Worth.

 

        7                We're here tonight to say a few words

 

        8  about the former Camp Wolters and talk a little bit

 

        9  about its history and how ordnance that was used on the

 

       10  camp back in the forties and later might have impacted

 

       11  upon the community these days.

 

       12                I'd like to introduce some of the folks

 

       13  that are with me tonight assisting me.

 

       14                Bill Sargent, he's with our Huntsville

 

       15  Center of expertise on ordnance and explosives --

 

       16  Huntsville, Alabama.  He's not with the prison.

 

       17                Elliot Adler, he's a project manager with

 

       18  our contractor out in Tennessee, EOD Technologies, Inc.

 

       19                Mr. Sites, he's with our Huntsville

 

       20  Center also.

 

       21                Bill Pierce, he's also with our

 

       22  contractor out of Tennessee.

 

       23                Robin Wells, who greeted you at the door,

 

       24  she's with our contractor.

 

       25                Jason Burton, he's from Huntsville.  He's

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  3

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  a technical manager.

 

        2                And Dwayne Ford, he's with me in the Fort

 

        3  Worth District Corps of Engineers.

 

        4                Thanks for coming tonight.

 

        5                I'll stand up here so I get out of your

 

        6  way.

 

        7                All right.  This camp is part of

 

        8  something called Formerly Used Defense Sites Programs.

 

        9                There are over 9,000 properties in the

 

       10  United States which used to be owned or leased or used

 

       11  by the Department of Defense in some manner.  And the

 

       12  Congress Corps of Engineers is the executive agents in

 

       13  charge of cleaning up these sites whether because of

 

       14  chemical contamination or mold building on it or

 

       15  possibly an ordnance problem.

 

       16                The process we go through in studying

 

       17  these sites is a three-step process.

 

       18                First is the inventory phase.  We do an

 

       19  inventory report where we determine whether the site was

 

       20  used by the Department of Defense.  And if there was an

 

       21  ordnance involved, we will do something called an

 

       22  Archives Search Report.

 

       23                Our historians in Saint Louis will go to

 

       24  all the military archives and gather information and

 

       25  write a very detailed report about what the activities

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  4

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  were on the base and how that effects possible ordnance.

 

        2                The second step is an investigation

 

        3  phase.  That's where we are right now.  We're performing

 

        4  this engineering evaluation/cost analysis.  That's an

 

        5  investigation where we actually go out on the site and

 

        6  walk the properties and inspect them visually and take

 

        7  metal-detector equipment and try to see what we can find

 

        8  beneath the surface.

 

        9                After we've done that we'll write a

 

       10  decision document where we decide what we're going to do

 

       11  about the situation and then we'll take some sort of

 

       12  response action.

 

       13                The history of the site is it started in

 

       14  1925 with the Texas National Guard used about 2300

 

       15  acres.  And then along came World War II and the Army

 

       16  came in and picked up that property plus another 20,000

 

       17  acres or so in two locations.  You saw the maps back

 

       18  there.  The main camp is a 20,000-acre piece of property

 

       19  and then there was another 3,000 acres to the west

 

       20  called Baker's Hollow.

 

       21                In 1951 it was turned in the Wolters Air

 

       22  Force Base, at least a portion of it was.  The

 

       23  Engineering Aviation units came up here from the Air

 

       24  Force.

 

       25                In 1956 it was redesignated Camp Wolters

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  5

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  again and became the Army primary helicopter and

 

        2  training school.

 

        3                In 1959 there was a certain period where

 

        4  we had a Nike missile silo base here.

 

        5                And by 1974 to the present the Texas

 

        6  National Guard has taken over a portion of the property.

 

        7                We've got some historical photos.  This

 

        8  is an obstacle course.  See the soldiers climbing up

 

        9  this wooden structure, having a high old time, playing

 

       10  king of the mountain there, May 1945.

 

       11                This is an area called Hell's Bottom.  We

 

       12  actually know where this is now.  You can see how it was

 

       13  all muddy and in a low area.  You can see the posts

 

       14  around here and circular structures that were used for

 

       15  training.

 

       16                This is an upclose photo of that showing

 

       17  the soldiers crawling on their bellies going through

 

       18  these training areas, exercise areas.

 

       19                This is one of the small arms firing

 

       20  ranges.  We know there were several of those out there.

 

       21                This is a couple of soldiers posing for

 

       22  bayonet training.  The photo is kind of interesting.

 

       23  The dummies actually have little glasses on them and

 

       24  they're kind of made up to look like Japanese soldiers.

 

       25                This was a Japanese village.  They

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  6

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  practiced house to house fighting.

 

        2                Here some soldiers posing -- working with

 

        3  60 millimeter mortars.  We know those -- this type of

 

        4  ordnance -- or 81 millimeter mortars, we know this type

 

        5  of ordnance was used there.

 

        6                And this is a pill box that they would

 

        7  use for attacking a fortified position, training that

 

        8  sort of thing.

 

        9                This is called a two-story Japanese style

 

       10  bunker.  Generally, was known as Hell's Bottom Barnes,

 

       11  Captain Barnes.

 

       12                This is area you can see the two areas of

 

       13  the 20,000-acre piece and that's the 3,000 acre, a

 

       14  larger view of that.  The state park is in the middle.

 

       15                Now this drawing shows the different

 

       16  properties.  The red outline, which goes like this, was

 

       17  the original property that the Army bought, along with

 

       18  this.

 

       19                Later on, they expanded it.  They added

 

       20  this area over here called Pinto Ridge and they added

 

       21  this area over here called Penitentiary Hollow and Dry

 

       22  Valley.

 

       23                When the Air Force came in they didn't

 

       24  use all that property.  They only used this yellow

 

       25  outlined area.

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  7

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1                The National Guard uses -- now has a

 

        2  U-shaped, upside down U-shaped portion.  It looks like

 

        3  this with a finger of the state park poking up in the

 

        4  middle.

 

        5                That's what the National Guard has right

 

        6  now.

 

        7                Back when it was helicopter training

 

        8  school it had a series of heliports.  I think there were

 

        9  three of those and they had 25 of these helicopter

 

       10  staging areas.  And you can see on this map of the

 

       11  20,000-acre area, there's only three staging areas and

 

       12  one heliport and that's because they were spread out

 

       13  over a much larger area.

 

       14                This is the camp.  You can see these

 

       15  triangles.  These are all the helicopter staging areas.

 

       16  They're spread out over a 700,000-acre area over four or

 

       17  five counties.

 

       18                This map shows -- these red areas here,

 

       19  these are firing ranges.  We have old maps that show

 

       20  where the plan on the base was for the firing ranges.

 

       21                Now, during World War II the training

 

       22  units didn't always follow the plans of the Army.

 

       23  Sometimes they would train in places where there were no

 

       24  designated ranges.  We've got a clearance document

 

       25  signed by the range officer that says, Pinto Ridge area

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  8

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  right here, there was never any live ordnance used in

 

        2  that area.  Well, two years ago -- a year and a half

 

        3  ago, we cleared out over 100 hand grenades from that

 

        4  area right there, all live.

 

        5                So the records aren't always accurate.

 

        6  That's why we have to come down and physically look at

 

        7  the site and do personal investigation because we can't

 

        8  trust the archives.

 

        9                The investigation phase has several steps

 

       10  to it.  First is the Historical Photo Analysis, which

 

       11  some of you were looking at some of the historical

 

       12  photos that we have.

 

       13                The Army's topographic engineering center

 

       14  in Fort Belvoir, Virginia performs this.  They use a

 

       15  series of old aerial photos from starting in 1943 all

 

       16  the way up to 1995 and they examine these areas of

 

       17  interest with a magnifying glass to try to determine

 

       18  features that might indicate there was military training

 

       19  activity or ordnance use.

 

       20                This is an area that several of you were

 

       21  interested in.  You were looking at the photos.  This is

 

       22  Marsden Road, an east-west road up in the northwest

 

       23  portion of the old camp.

 

       24                This is Ledbetter Road here.  And this is

 

       25  Hayes Road.  Hayes Road goes like this.

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                  9

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1                This is a 1948 aerial photo.  This is

 

        2  Marsden Road.  You can see there's some straight lines

 

        3  over here.  When we blow that up it looks like this area

 

        4  over here was an old grenade course -- or hand grenade

 

        5  training area.

 

        6                There were all sorts of structures on the

 

        7  sites, berms, that indicate there was firing  positions

 

        8  and training activity there.

 

        9                This is the area, again, there's Marsden

 

       10  Road, there's Hayes Road.  This is 1948.  Ledbetter Road

 

       11  wasn't there at the time.  This is prior to that road

 

       12  being constructed.  This is the field where we found the

 

       13  130 hand grenades a year and a half ago, so there was

 

       14  some activity there, firing positions, vehicles parked

 

       15  on  the road here, vehicle tracks.  These are the types

 

       16  of information they get from magnifying these photos and

 

       17  right next to that to the east is another firing range.

 

       18                You see all these detailed structures

 

       19  below ground and some mounds, these are either firing

 

       20  positions or places for targets, either firing positions

 

       21  or targets over here as well.

 

       22                The same general area just to the west of

 

       23  the grenade course, there was this berm, this mound of

 

       24  dirt, 1500 feet long, which is probably a backstop for

 

       25  target practice, probably small arms that they were

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 10

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  standing over here and shooting at this target here.

 

        2                This is that area with all of those

 

        3  features on it so we can see all the activity that was

 

        4  going on in that area in 1948.

 

        5                This is those same areas on a 1995 aerial

 

        6  photo, more recently.  Here you can see Ledbetter Road

 

        7  is there now.  It wasn't before.

 

        8                This is just to the southeast.  This is

 

        9  Marsden Road over here.  This is the Nike/Hercules

 

       10  missile battery over here.

 

       11                The county line goes right through here

 

       12  like that. The launch control facility is over here.  It

 

       13  was usually quite a distance away.  So here we have an

 

       14  instance where the missiles were launched here and in

 

       15  the next county they actually controlled them over here.

 

       16                I'd like Bill to come up here and talk

 

       17  about the ordnance because he's an ordnance guy.

 

       18                Bill Sargent from our Huntsville office.

 

       19                MR. SARGENT:  Some of the ordnance that

 

       20  was used -- of course, Camp Wolters, being a World War

 

       21  II divisional training or infantry or placement center,

 

       22  we would expect to find any type of ordnance that the

 

       23  Army Infantry was using back in the World War II era.

 

       24                The other thing that comes to mind after

 

       25  that is that afterwards we had the Air Force base or

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 11

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  base defense forces using that and those guys trained

 

        2  with -- their primary mission was airfield repair,

 

        3  facility repair and then they had based defense missions

 

        4  in the Air Force units.  And they would have used like

 

        5  machine guns, mortars, and probably coreless rifles as a

 

        6  primary weapon of defense.

 

        7                And then, of course, the Army came in

 

        8  later with the helicopter training school.  And a lot of

 

        9  stuff we've heard now is that there weren't any ranges

 

       10  here for training them.  They did their primary flight

 

       11  training here and there weren't any ranges.  They went

 

       12  to other places like Fort (inaudible), Alabama to do

 

       13  their range training with the helicopters thing, but

 

       14  that remains to be seen because we found some ammunition

 

       15  that was found out there that we don't know where that

 

       16  came from.  It was washed out in the stuff.  So we're

 

       17  not really sure and we'll find out once we get out on

 

       18  the ground.

 

       19                The ordnance that was used in Camp

 

       20  Wolters, of course, small arms ammunition are

 

       21  traditional, .30 caliber, your .45-caliber pistol, your

 

       22  machine gun, .50 caliber stuff, your projectiles and we

 

       23  had the anti-tank gun, which was a 37 millimeter.  This

 

       24  is a 37 right here that came out of Camp Bowie down in

 

       25  Brownwood, Texas, so we traditionally find a lot of

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 12

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  these out here.  We find some that are target practice,

 

        2  just solid shot.  We find some that, back then they were

 

        3  called high explosives, now they are really a low

 

        4  explosive, filled with black powder and then we have the

 

        5  high explosive rounds too.

 

        6                And these things, because of the fusing,

 

        7  we don't touch these things.  We just take care of them

 

        8  right where they are at.  The fusing on these -- these

 

        9  guys don't play with these things.

 

       10                We also have anti-tank mines.  Most of

 

       11  the mines that we find are inert training mines, but

 

       12  sometimes we do a spotting charge or some type of marker

 

       13  charge that was left in them.  They can hurt you.

 

       14                And then the grenades, rifle hand

 

       15  grenades, everybody seems to find -- I think we have

 

       16  pictures, so anyways these are the types of things that

 

       17  we have, the rockets, the mortars, the practice bombs,

 

       18  potentially, I don't know if we have those here or not.

 

       19  We do have them on some sites and we never know where

 

       20  we're going to find these things with the Air Force

 

       21  dropping them.

 

       22                And then maybe 155 millimeter

 

       23  projectiles.

 

       24                These are the old pineapple grenades, the

 

       25  Mark II hand grenades.  Of course, this one here the top

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 13

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  is corroded away, but this one here still has the pin

 

        2  and the spoon with it.  They make people very nervous

 

        3  when they see them like that because they don't have all

 

        4  these things that have corroded.  You know, all you need

 

        5  to do is have that thing pop and she's ready to go.

 

        6                These are the ones we found at the

 

        7  removal action.  I think it was done up on Ledbetter

 

        8  Road, but we find these on training grenade ranges, and

 

        9  again, they tried to clear these sites when they did

 

       10  this clearance stuff, but a lot of these were in ravines

 

       11  and areas that got covered up with brush and so we would

 

       12  traditionally find either the hand grenade still laying

 

       13  out here or defuses or parts of those things like that,

 

       14  so grenade ranges are of a particular interest to us.

 

       15                This is a 57 millimeter.  It's a larger,

 

       16  just like the 37, more of an anti-tank type gun.

 

       17  Most of the ones we find are solid shot but they do have

 

       18  high explosives out there, so we let the experts like

 

       19  Elliot, those guys who have been through the bomb

 

       20  disposal EOD school, they take a determination and they

 

       21  look at it and then some of the things they can't tell.

 

       22  They just said, you know, we're going to take this and

 

       23  we're going to blow it, we're not going to risk it.

 

       24                These are 2.36 inch rockets or bazooka

 

       25  rounds as they are traditionally known, both of these

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 14

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  were at Camp Claiborne, Louisiana.  This is like -- the

 

        2  Louisiana maneuvers were taking place in central

 

        3  Louisiana, so a lot of this stuff out there.

 

        4                This one's got the nosepiece knocked off

 

        5  of it.  You just see a little piece of steel rod.  This

 

        6  is a practice round.  That's the only way you can tell

 

        7  this is practice is if the nose is gone and that steel

 

        8  rod is sitting in there.  Otherwise, when they find them

 

        9  like this, we cannot tell if it's a live one or

 

       10  practice.  We certainly treat every one of those as a

 

       11  live until they knock it apart with an explosive chart.

 

       12                These are dangerous.  If they didn't

 

       13  impact something and they're a live round, because of

 

       14  the fusing on them, it wouldn't take much to drop one of

 

       15  these things and it could potentially function.  It was

 

       16  an anti-tank weapon.

 

       17                The mortar rounds.  Here are 60

 

       18  millimeter mortar rounds, 81, bigger, shaped a little

 

       19  bit differently like that, but again we're finding a lot

 

       20  of these.  At Camp Howze we've got a whole slew of those

 

       21  coming out of Camp Howze in one area.

 

       22                Again, with the fusing on those things,

 

       23  you know, they hit the ground, they don't function,

 

       24  they're stuck in the ground, you know, we don't know,

 

       25  just might take the right pressure stepping on them to

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 15

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  make them function, so, again, we just don't like

 

        2  fooling with these things either.  They find them, they

 

        3  make them go away right where they're at.

 

        4                And then these 105 millimeter artillery

 

        5  projectile.  This is what was the main gun by the end of

 

        6  World War II.  We find a lot of these that they hit the

 

        7  ground and the fuse broke off or for some reason they

 

        8  didn't function, so they're out there.

 

        9                     If they fired 105s out here for

 

       10  training, those are laying out there somewhere.  They

 

       11  just have a certain amount that just didn't function.

 

       12                These are the training mines I was

 

       13  telling you about.  These are the all empty.  You can

 

       14  see this -- they don't have anything in them.  This one

 

       15  has come apart, kind of the inside.  But, again, we do

 

       16  find them with the fuses, these left with a little

 

       17  plunger sticking out of them.  Sometimes they're

 

       18  actually mine fuse, which carry a healthy charge on

 

       19  them, but that one's just a spotting charge, just to

 

       20  make a smoke for the guys for it to go off.  They lay

 

       21  these out.  Wherever infantry trains, they put these

 

       22  out.  This is standard fair, they layed them out, they

 

       23  buried them and they walked off and left them and we

 

       24  find them everywhere we go.

 

       25                The only place we have ever found any,

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 16

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  that I know of, think full up, but were not these types

 

        2  of mines, they had ceramic mines that we have found at

 

        3  Camp (inaudible) up in Paris, but they didn't have any

 

        4  fuse, so they were a special type of mine that they were

 

        5  using there.  I guess when they buried them they

 

        6  couldn't find them because they were nonmetallic.  But

 

        7  we haven't seen any of those anywhere else yet.

 

        8                In 1946 the Army came through after all

 

        9  these camps and tried to clean them as best they could.

 

       10  They cleaned the targets that they knew of.  They

 

       11  cleaned where they knew the ordnance was being used at.

 

       12  You can see here that they picked up a lot of pounds of

 

       13  ordnance scraps and a lot of ordnance items.

 

       14                The Air Force came through in 1952 and

 

       15  did some clearance.

 

       16                In 1975 the Army came through and did

 

       17  some more clearance and probably after Camp Wolters,

 

       18  Fort Wolters was being shut down.  And, of course, this

 

       19  is the thing that Brian was talking about, the live

 

       20  grenades out on Ledbetter Road.

 

       21                The Army when they were clearing these

 

       22  things they did the best that they could.  They were

 

       23  taking POWs, they were using troops that were getting

 

       24  out.  They'd put them on line and they walk across these

 

       25  areas and guys would mark these things and then they

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244


                                                                 17

               U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Public Meeting -

               Mineral Wells, Texas  Date Taken:  2/24/03

 

 

 

        1  have bomb disposal and police it up and detonate them.

 

        2  These guys did not dig for anything.  If it was visible

 

        3  on the surface, that's what they went after.  They

 

        4  didn't dig for anything.  So anything below ground they

 

        5  would have bypassed it.  They wouldn't have been looking

 

        6  for it.

 

        7                Traditionally, they did not go into the

 

        8  ravines, heavily wooded areas.  You know, if the weather

 

        9  was bad they might not get out to some areas so we take

 

       10  it with a grain of salt, the clearance documents that we

 

       11  do get, they say that they've cleared it, but a lot of

 

       12  times they put areas they recommended for surface use

 

       13  only and impact areas, never assuming that, you know, 60

 

       14  years from then that it would be developed like it is

 

       15  now and people living out here during -- because they

 

       16  were looking at Texas back in 1945 and they are going,

 

       17  you know, people are situated here, but very few people

 

       18  are living out, well, that's all changing now.  So the

 

       19  clearances were done to the best of their ability with

 

       20  what technology would let them do at that time, but

 

       21  obviously it wasn't adequate enough because we're

 

       22  getting a lot of stuff coming out of these sites now.

 

       23                This is showing a collection of pellets

 

       24  weighing over 298 pounds.

 

       25                MR. CONDIKE:  That's showing that they

 

 

 

 

 

                               K.C. DEBUSK, CSR

                DOLORES STEWART & ASSOCIATES - (817) 810-0244